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"Houston, we have no ignition!"

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9 years 10 months ago #6432 by AERIAL0
Replied by AERIAL0 on topic "Houston, we have no ignition!"
A long time since I saw all those symbols as trained to be a tv engineer 44 years ago and since then lost the plot :woohoo: At the age of 60 just keep it simple.

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9 years 10 months ago #6433 by scotch
Replied by scotch on topic "Houston, we have no ignition!"
If this was on DVD we could skip the "previews" and get right to the movie. I hear it's electrifying.

1980 KZ 1300 sr# KZT30A-009997
Always High - Know Fear !

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9 years 10 months ago #6437 by stocktoy
Replied by stocktoy on topic "Houston, we have no ignition!"

trikebldr wrote: It might help move things along if I could get an idea of just how much basic electronics most of you know. Electrical theory is a hard concept to comprehend at first since you can't see it. Where it really gets hard to explain is when the old water hose analogy can't be used to explain things like inductance and impedance.

Mostly, how many understand these formulas and how to use them?

Electric Power Formulas
P = V I (1a)
P = R I2 (1b)
P = V2/ R (1c)
where
P = power (watts, W)
V = voltage (volts, V)
I = current (amperes, A)
R = resistance (ohms, Ω)

Electric Current Formulas
I = V / R (2a)
I = P / V (2b)
I = (P / R)1/2 (2c)

Electric Resistance Formulas
R = V / I (3a)
R = V2/ P (3b)
R = P / I2 (3c)

Electrical Potential Formulas - Ohms Law
Ohms law can be expressed as:
V = R I (4a)
V = P / I (4b)
V = (P R)1/2 (4c)


may not be visible however the results can be - singed hair smoking ears, missing toe caps on boots, suddene loss of sight do to brightr lights...(hahaha)
really though for me self I know a bit of background I did start to biuld my own ign using a GM HI distributor however put on back burner years ago made mostof the parts I needed though.

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9 years 10 months ago #6450 by Artsagas
Replied by Artsagas on topic "Houston, we have no ignition!"
For me I guess it'll have to be veeeeeeeery simple and down to earth. The topic is exciting, though. Thanks in advance!

Arturo
1982 Kawasaki Z1300

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9 years 10 months ago #6455 by trikebldr
Replied by trikebldr on topic "Houston, we have no ignition!"
Sorry to have to take a break yesterday, but I couldn't find exactly what I was looking for online to illustrate my points. So, to get started I will use the example, as I interpreted it, that Bill asked about in a PM. It is a good place to start and build from.

As I read it, he asked that if the resistance in the primary were reduced, wouldn't that also reduce the output of the secondary (spark)? The answer would no. In fact, if the resistance in the primary were reduced, that means that the current would increase, which also means that the power input is increased. This is assuming that the voltage remains constant from the output of the CDI.

Remember this in all of your thinking of what is happening in a coil: Power-in equals power-out is a firm rule to go by, but you must expect minor efficiency losses too.

So, in this case, if the resistance in the primary were reduced, either by removing the ballast resistor or by using a coil with a lower resistance, then the power input will be greater, meaning also that the power out to the plug will be greater and the spark should be hotter. Don't forget that power is voltage times amperage.

The voltage at the spark plug is determined solely by the conditions the spark is trying to jump, or what we call the "soup"(refer to my terminology page for a complete definition of those conditions). Once sufficient voltage has been developed to jump that gap through the soup, it doesn't develop any higher. Under low engine power conditions this spark voltage requirement will be low, and that means that the current will be higher (remember that power remains constant, so if voltage is lower, current is higher). Current is what creates the heat necessary to ignite the soup.

For this next step remember that the input to the primary from the stock CDI basically remains constant no matter what conditions are being asked for at the plug. This is true only for "normal" CDI's that come from the factory. They work fine for most street use riding conditions. A lot of aftermarket CDI's have features that monitor system requirement changes and can vary their output to the coil. We're not talking about them right now, though.

Now, when the rpm's increase and/or the driver asks for more power, the composition of the soup changes, requiring more voltage to jump the gap. When that voltage increases, the current decreases. With less current, the heat from the spark is less, and eventually there won't be enough heat to ignite the mixture. Misfires happen at this point. If you ride the bike according to manufacturer's recommendations, this situation will rarely happen, though, so stock ignition systems are fine.

The major manufacturers have engineered their bikes' ignition systems to perform adequately under the conditions the bike was intended for, and tens of thousands of owners out there have been happy the way the come from the factory. But, how many on this forum are happy to leave well-enough alone and ride sanely? NONE! That's why we are always looking for that holy grail of coils that will give us flawless performance at all speeds and conditions for ever and ever!

One of the things I hope to get across in all of this is just why that holy grail coil is pretty much a myth.

I presented a hypothetical case above and it needs to be well understood before we go on. The way all of those factors play together should be second nature to your thinking, so please go read, re-read and re-read it all again until it is. I put quite a bit of stuff in such a short space. To help remember, just remember eating pie (P=IE). Power(watts) equals current(amps) times voltage(volts), then remember how varying any of the three elements affects the other two. This is the basis of everything I will discuss from here.

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9 years 10 months ago #6468 by trikebldr
Replied by trikebldr on topic "Houston, we have no ignition!"
I mentioned that the current is what creates the "heat" of the spark. I am constantly told that ANY spark whatsoever will ignite the fuel/air mixture! NOT SO! Here's the best analogy I can give of how this works:

Take a 2 X 4 and try to ignite it with a candle. Maybe, just MAYBE, after a couple of hours it might start to burn, but not likely. There will be a black scorch mark where the flame hit it, but it most likely won't ignite that board so it continues to burn on it's own.

Now, take one of those Harbor Freight propane weed burners and turn it up full and you can burn the whole board in no time, or let it keep burning on it's own. It won't take but maybe a few seconds to get it burning on it's own.

A really hot spark will get the flame front moving quicker and more consistently. Also, any questionable mixtures will be more likely to go ahead and ignite.

OK, got it?

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