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Water Pump Seals
- dcarver220b
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1 year 7 months ago #31125
by dcarver220b
RevisitedMechanical seal thread cut and pasted back for history
---- I parked my bike up in November (ish) for the winter. While I had her off the road I replaced the mechanical water pump seal as it had started dripping from the telltale hole in the crankcase. I ordered all the bits from Oz at Zed Parts. As well as the actual seal I bought the shaft o rings and the pump housing o ring and a new circlip. I reassembled everything and sealed it all up with RTV. I refilled the system with 50/50 pure antifreeze and distilled water and then covered her up. I decided to get her ready for the road today and the bloody thing is still dripping when the motor is running? Now I’m certain I’ve done everything correctly so why do you think it’s leaking? As soon as the salt disappears off the roads I’ll take her for a short run as someone has suggested that they do need to “run in” Despite this being my first bike mechanical seal I’ve done dozens of mechanical seals on big pumps when I was working and they have always sealed immediately. Report to moderator
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Thank You Mechanical seal Mechanical seals don't need to be "Lapped in" so no running up of the engine would fix a newly installed seal. The whole theory of the mechanical seal is that the seal faces are lapped to less than 2 light bands and there's nothing smaller than 2 light bands that will cross the faces of the seal.
Without knowing how you handled the seal components or the method of installation i.e. lubrication used and where, it's hard to help here. There are several areas of the mechanical seal that need to work properly to achieve a seal.
The stellite face has to seal to the housing so the leak could be across that sealing face. If the housing was not cleaned back to as new, that might be the problem.
The Stellite face when removed from the packaging as a rule of thumb, needs to be cleaned with either methyl hydrate or lacquer thinner and when ready for installation the face of the seal should be a mirror finish and I truely mean a mirror finish. You should not see any stains, on the face what so ever. When handling the stellite face, you should be wearing nitrile gloves. the acid in your skin can damage the face of the seal and what may have happened here, is that you installed the seal and didn't run up the engine and there was no flushing of the seal with the antifreeze and maybe, just maybe the acid from your fingers had a chance to etch the stellite over the past few months.
The carbon seal face needs to be inspected before installing for cracks or chips on the perimeter of the seal. There's also a seal surface between the carbon face and the seal drive shaft that the o ring rides on. Lots of reports of a damaged drive shaft at that o ring seal area. O-rings needs around 15% compression to be able to do their job so knowing that, and knowing that the seal drive shafts have needed replacement in the past, I would measure the shaft and ensure that 15% compression is there.
I always ensure that when installing o-rings that I use a silicone based o-ring lube or if that's not handy at the time, use the fluid of the system being sealed as a lubricant. In this case, I would use the antifreeze. Both the stellite seal face and the carbon face seals have to be rolled into position so as the seal is installed, the o-ring has to squirm into position instead of being in position and then compressed. The o ring has to distort as it's being compressed/positioned and if the o ring is dry when installed, it will not relax and orient itself so that the entire seal is sealing properly.
At this point, I hate to say it, but you really should disassemble the seal and inspect it and particularly the shaft in the area of the carbon face o-ring.
Let know how you make out. Here to help.
KB
The following user(s) said Thank You: PaulD Report to moderator
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Thank You Mechanical seal I've replaced the water-pump seal "numerous "times over the 43 years. Some seal right from the get-go; one never did and ironicly, I reused the current one after the top-end rebuild and it never showed a "drop" !. I've also had a weep start after the fact - left it alone and the weeping quit within a tank-full or two (?) No apparent rhyme or reason.
Kawboys' correct ! "Cleanliness" is not an option - it's mandatory, for your best chance of a leak free install. For myself that also includes changing the coolant every 2 years.
Between those changes: Whenever I need to drain the system for maintenance I always use a (automotive-paint) filter when refilling the rad. It's sometimes surprising to see what a filter will remove.
1980 KZ 1300 sr# KZT30A-009997
Always High - Know Fear !
The following user(s) said Thank You: PaulD Last edit: by scotch . Report to moderator
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Thank You Mechanical seal Thanks for the replies, when I replaced the seal I was very careful not to touch the mating surfaces and I give them a quick wipe over with a clean lint free cloth sprayed with brake cleaner and I then dipped them in neat antifreeze before fitting them. I used rubber grease on the shaft “O” rings and I sealed the rear (fixed) seal with RTV. I refilled the system with fresh neat antifreeze and fresh distilled water mixed to 50/50. I didn’t filter the solution though! I’ll give the bike a short run as soon as I get a dry salt free day and report back. Report to moderator
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Thank You Mechanical seal Filtering the coolant is just something I do. The few times I've had to dump the engine oil for work requiring an empty oil-pan, I filter the oil too - if I'm reusing it.
There's usually little specks of something, in the filters.
Why put "anything" back into the system?
1980 KZ 1300 sr# KZT30A-009997
Always High - Know Fear !
The following user(s) said Thank You: zed_thirteen , PaulD Report to moderator
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Thank You Mechanical seal
Has anyone used the mechanical seal out of Germany? Report to moderator
Quick Reply Reply Quote TOPIC:Mechanical seal The one I'm currently using was obtained from a Electric Motor/Pump Service shop. I took in an OEM and found a match for 1/2 the price. It's a basic shaft seal and apparently common.
1980 KZ 1300 sr# KZT30A-009997
Always High - Know Fear !
The following user(s) said Thank You: Kawboy , PaulD Report to moderator
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Thank You Mechanical seal
Most interesting! Any chance you have additional info? Report to moderator
Quick Reply Reply Quote Mechanical seal 2 minutes using the search engine on the site and here's your answer.
Scotch's post regarding mechanical seal availability
I can tell you that the job of resurfacing a mechanical seal takes about 5 minutes on a Lapmaster to resurface the stellite face and about 2 minutes on a diamond plate to resurface a carbon seal face, so if you have a mechanical seal refurbishment shop nearby, $10 under the table for one of the boys in the shop should do the trick. Just saying. It ain't rocket science. I must have refaced 200-300 mechanical seals in the 5 years I spent on the tools at the nuclear plant. And I'm surprised if you Don didn't do the same. Most of our mechanical seals averaged between $2000-40000 dollars. The biggest mechanical seal I worked on at the plant was a generator Lube Oil Seal with a diameter of 50 inches and it sealed a shaft rotating at 1800 RPM The total mass of the 3 low pressure turbines, the single high pressure turbine and the generator was 450 tonnes
The following user(s) said Thank You: dcarver220b Last edit: by Kawboy . Report to moderator
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Unthank You Mechanical seal Most interesting! Any chance you have additional info?
Sorry - no Generic part number info.
1980 KZ 1300 sr# KZT30A-009997
Always High - Know Fear !
The following user(s) said Thank You: dcarver220b Report to moderator
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Unthank You Mechanical seal
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Quick Reply Reply Quote Mechanical seal3 days 19 hours ago Am I the only member of this site who isn't a nuclear scientist or rocket scientist or anything?
1981 KZ1300, '98 Suzuki GSF1200S, '80 Honda CT110, '11 Honda CBR250, '75 Honda CL360, '00 Honda XR100R
Speak softly and mount a fast bike. Report to moderator
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Thank You Mechanical seal
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Thank You Mechanical seal - 49063-1001
Alas, cue sad music, our part number 49063-1001 is 'discontinued' everywhere I looked except for z1300.de. I need more stuff from .de so I'll order from there, have a known good one available, then try the pool/pump/jacuzzi stores for future reference.
I only have one lift, and don't want the 79 consuming it for weeks on end.. a KTM 690 needs some love and the 1980 KZ1300 sits forlornly in the corner, longingly eyeballing the lift.... Report to moderator
Quick Reply Reply Quote Mechanical seal - 49063-1001 I would caution everyone from using Partzilla as a supplier. I had 3 bad experiences. Ordered parts and paid for then got notification 2 days later stating no stock. Had to ask for refunds 4 or 5 times on each purchase before reimbursement. I think the idea was that I would forget about the monies sent and they would capitalize on this.
Just a bad reputation as far as I'm concerned.
KB Report to moderator
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Thank You Mechanical seal - 49063-1001 Zed parts in the UK do a replacement if you get stuck
The following user(s) said Thank You: dcarver220b Report to moderator
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Unthank You TOPIC:Mechanical seal NOTE: This NOT (necessarily) the correct size for a 1300 but gives you an idea of what they "really" cost.
As I said previously: Take your leaking one to a shop and odds are good they'll have the correct size.
www.amazon.ca/PS-1000-Shaft-Seal-Swimmin...d_i=B097CW6L82&psc=1
1980 KZ 1300 sr# KZT30A-009997
Always High - Know Fear !
The following user(s) said Thank You: dcarver220b Last edit: by scotch . Report to moderator
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Unthank You Mechanical seal
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Maybe you could coerce them into shipping Royal Mail ???
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All I need is an OEM part, even if used, no good... for measurements.Last edit: by dcarver220b . Report to moderator
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when I search that part number this shows up: 5/8" Bore Type 70 Mechanical Pump Seal - George Lodge and Sons Ltd (georgelodgedirect.co.uk)
I don't know how "E.C" differs from N.C (I think N.C is Nitrile + Carbon-ceramic?)
So I guess you need a 5/8" type 70 nitrile mech seal. Take a look at the "Size Code" 0158 in this spec sheet for dimensions: www.georgelodgedirect.co.uk/downloads/ME...70.E.C/type%2070.pdf
1980 KZ1300 B2 Touring/A2
1990 ZZ-R1100 C1
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Water Pump Seals was created by dcarver220b
RevisitedMechanical seal thread cut and pasted back for history
---- I parked my bike up in November (ish) for the winter. While I had her off the road I replaced the mechanical water pump seal as it had started dripping from the telltale hole in the crankcase. I ordered all the bits from Oz at Zed Parts. As well as the actual seal I bought the shaft o rings and the pump housing o ring and a new circlip. I reassembled everything and sealed it all up with RTV. I refilled the system with 50/50 pure antifreeze and distilled water and then covered her up. I decided to get her ready for the road today and the bloody thing is still dripping when the motor is running? Now I’m certain I’ve done everything correctly so why do you think it’s leaking? As soon as the salt disappears off the roads I’ll take her for a short run as someone has suggested that they do need to “run in” Despite this being my first bike mechanical seal I’ve done dozens of mechanical seals on big pumps when I was working and they have always sealed immediately. Report to moderator
Quick Reply Reply Quote
Thank You Mechanical seal Mechanical seals don't need to be "Lapped in" so no running up of the engine would fix a newly installed seal. The whole theory of the mechanical seal is that the seal faces are lapped to less than 2 light bands and there's nothing smaller than 2 light bands that will cross the faces of the seal.
Without knowing how you handled the seal components or the method of installation i.e. lubrication used and where, it's hard to help here. There are several areas of the mechanical seal that need to work properly to achieve a seal.
The stellite face has to seal to the housing so the leak could be across that sealing face. If the housing was not cleaned back to as new, that might be the problem.
The Stellite face when removed from the packaging as a rule of thumb, needs to be cleaned with either methyl hydrate or lacquer thinner and when ready for installation the face of the seal should be a mirror finish and I truely mean a mirror finish. You should not see any stains, on the face what so ever. When handling the stellite face, you should be wearing nitrile gloves. the acid in your skin can damage the face of the seal and what may have happened here, is that you installed the seal and didn't run up the engine and there was no flushing of the seal with the antifreeze and maybe, just maybe the acid from your fingers had a chance to etch the stellite over the past few months.
The carbon seal face needs to be inspected before installing for cracks or chips on the perimeter of the seal. There's also a seal surface between the carbon face and the seal drive shaft that the o ring rides on. Lots of reports of a damaged drive shaft at that o ring seal area. O-rings needs around 15% compression to be able to do their job so knowing that, and knowing that the seal drive shafts have needed replacement in the past, I would measure the shaft and ensure that 15% compression is there.
I always ensure that when installing o-rings that I use a silicone based o-ring lube or if that's not handy at the time, use the fluid of the system being sealed as a lubricant. In this case, I would use the antifreeze. Both the stellite seal face and the carbon face seals have to be rolled into position so as the seal is installed, the o-ring has to squirm into position instead of being in position and then compressed. The o ring has to distort as it's being compressed/positioned and if the o ring is dry when installed, it will not relax and orient itself so that the entire seal is sealing properly.
At this point, I hate to say it, but you really should disassemble the seal and inspect it and particularly the shaft in the area of the carbon face o-ring.
Let know how you make out. Here to help.
KB
The following user(s) said Thank You: PaulD Report to moderator
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Thank You Mechanical seal I've replaced the water-pump seal "numerous "times over the 43 years. Some seal right from the get-go; one never did and ironicly, I reused the current one after the top-end rebuild and it never showed a "drop" !. I've also had a weep start after the fact - left it alone and the weeping quit within a tank-full or two (?) No apparent rhyme or reason.
Kawboys' correct ! "Cleanliness" is not an option - it's mandatory, for your best chance of a leak free install. For myself that also includes changing the coolant every 2 years.
Between those changes: Whenever I need to drain the system for maintenance I always use a (automotive-paint) filter when refilling the rad. It's sometimes surprising to see what a filter will remove.
1980 KZ 1300 sr# KZT30A-009997
Always High - Know Fear !
The following user(s) said Thank You: PaulD Last edit: by scotch . Report to moderator
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Thank You Mechanical seal Thanks for the replies, when I replaced the seal I was very careful not to touch the mating surfaces and I give them a quick wipe over with a clean lint free cloth sprayed with brake cleaner and I then dipped them in neat antifreeze before fitting them. I used rubber grease on the shaft “O” rings and I sealed the rear (fixed) seal with RTV. I refilled the system with fresh neat antifreeze and fresh distilled water mixed to 50/50. I didn’t filter the solution though! I’ll give the bike a short run as soon as I get a dry salt free day and report back. Report to moderator
Quick Reply Reply Quote
Thank You Mechanical seal Filtering the coolant is just something I do. The few times I've had to dump the engine oil for work requiring an empty oil-pan, I filter the oil too - if I'm reusing it.
There's usually little specks of something, in the filters.
Why put "anything" back into the system?
1980 KZ 1300 sr# KZT30A-009997
Always High - Know Fear !
The following user(s) said Thank You: zed_thirteen , PaulD Report to moderator
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Thank You Mechanical seal
- dcarver220b
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Has anyone used the mechanical seal out of Germany? Report to moderator
Quick Reply Reply Quote TOPIC:Mechanical seal The one I'm currently using was obtained from a Electric Motor/Pump Service shop. I took in an OEM and found a match for 1/2 the price. It's a basic shaft seal and apparently common.
1980 KZ 1300 sr# KZT30A-009997
Always High - Know Fear !
The following user(s) said Thank You: Kawboy , PaulD Report to moderator
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Thank You Mechanical seal
- dcarver220b
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scotch wrote:
The one I'm currently using was obtained from a Electric Motor/Pump Service shop. I took in an OEM and found a match for 1/2 the price. It's a basic shaft seal and apparently common.
Most interesting! Any chance you have additional info? Report to moderator
Quick Reply Reply Quote Mechanical seal 2 minutes using the search engine on the site and here's your answer.
Scotch's post regarding mechanical seal availability
I can tell you that the job of resurfacing a mechanical seal takes about 5 minutes on a Lapmaster to resurface the stellite face and about 2 minutes on a diamond plate to resurface a carbon seal face, so if you have a mechanical seal refurbishment shop nearby, $10 under the table for one of the boys in the shop should do the trick. Just saying. It ain't rocket science. I must have refaced 200-300 mechanical seals in the 5 years I spent on the tools at the nuclear plant. And I'm surprised if you Don didn't do the same. Most of our mechanical seals averaged between $2000-40000 dollars. The biggest mechanical seal I worked on at the plant was a generator Lube Oil Seal with a diameter of 50 inches and it sealed a shaft rotating at 1800 RPM The total mass of the 3 low pressure turbines, the single high pressure turbine and the generator was 450 tonnes
The following user(s) said Thank You: dcarver220b Last edit: by Kawboy . Report to moderator
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Unthank You Mechanical seal Most interesting! Any chance you have additional info?
Sorry - no Generic part number info.
1980 KZ 1300 sr# KZT30A-009997
Always High - Know Fear !
The following user(s) said Thank You: dcarver220b Report to moderator
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Unthank You Mechanical seal
- dcarver220b
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Actually, I have zero experience with mechanical seals, nuke plant or elsewhere. I worked then ran the Metrology lab. So I could provide you the optical flat and monochromatic light to determine the number of bands.Kawboy wrote:
And I'm surprised if you Don didn't do the same.
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Got it. You worked in the calibration lab Report to moderatorActually, I have zero experience with mechanical seals, nuke plant or elsewhere. I worked then ran the Metrology lab. So I could provide you the optical flat and monochromatic light to determine the number of bands.Kawboy wrote:
And I'm surprised if you Don didn't do the same.
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Thank You TOPIC:Mechanical seal
- dcarver220b
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Yes. I was an I&C Tech for about 90 minutes then was 'promoted' to the lab since I had previous experience... LOL, funny how life works. Report to moderatorGot it. You worked in the calibration labActually, I have zero experience with mechanical seals, nuke plant or elsewhere. I worked then ran the Metrology lab. So I could provide you the optical flat and monochromatic light to determine the number of bands.Kawboy wrote:
And I'm surprised if you Don didn't do the same.
Quick Reply Reply Quote Mechanical seal3 days 19 hours ago Am I the only member of this site who isn't a nuclear scientist or rocket scientist or anything?
1981 KZ1300, '98 Suzuki GSF1200S, '80 Honda CT110, '11 Honda CBR250, '75 Honda CL360, '00 Honda XR100R
Speak softly and mount a fast bike. Report to moderator
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Thank You Mechanical seal
Report to moderatorTed wrote:
Am I the only member of this site who isn't a nuclear scientist or rocket scientist or anything?
well I served my time in a tool room and then I had a re-think and took up lorry driving if that counts lol
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Thank You Mechanical seal - 49063-1001
- dcarver220b
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Alas, cue sad music, our part number 49063-1001 is 'discontinued' everywhere I looked except for z1300.de. I need more stuff from .de so I'll order from there, have a known good one available, then try the pool/pump/jacuzzi stores for future reference.
I only have one lift, and don't want the 79 consuming it for weeks on end.. a KTM 690 needs some love and the 1980 KZ1300 sits forlornly in the corner, longingly eyeballing the lift.... Report to moderator
Quick Reply Reply Quote Mechanical seal - 49063-1001 I would caution everyone from using Partzilla as a supplier. I had 3 bad experiences. Ordered parts and paid for then got notification 2 days later stating no stock. Had to ask for refunds 4 or 5 times on each purchase before reimbursement. I think the idea was that I would forget about the monies sent and they would capitalize on this.
Just a bad reputation as far as I'm concerned.
KB Report to moderator
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Thank You Mechanical seal - 49063-1001 Zed parts in the UK do a replacement if you get stuck
The following user(s) said Thank You: dcarver220b Report to moderator
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Unthank You TOPIC:Mechanical seal NOTE: This NOT (necessarily) the correct size for a 1300 but gives you an idea of what they "really" cost.
As I said previously: Take your leaking one to a shop and odds are good they'll have the correct size.
www.amazon.ca/PS-1000-Shaft-Seal-Swimmin...d_i=B097CW6L82&psc=1
1980 KZ 1300 sr# KZT30A-009997
Always High - Know Fear !
The following user(s) said Thank You: dcarver220b Last edit: by scotch . Report to moderator
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Unthank You Mechanical seal
- dcarver220b
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Depends on how they ship. I just received 2 throttle plunger diaphragms from Legend Motorcycles in the UK. Diaphragms were 18.96 x 2 and shipping was 4.78 via Royal Mail. I do know that if they ship by a courier, the cost to ship is through the roof.dcarver220b wrote:
"What a long strange trip it's been."Thanks to the feller who suggested Zed-Parts. They have mucho OEM parts for the 1300! ..and the website is in English unlike z1300.de which is 80% German requiring google translatebut the shipping, oh my..
Maybe you could coerce them into shipping Royal Mail ???
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All I need is an OEM part, even if used, no good... for measurements.Last edit: by dcarver220b . Report to moderator
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- zed_thirteen
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when I search that part number this shows up: 5/8" Bore Type 70 Mechanical Pump Seal - George Lodge and Sons Ltd (georgelodgedirect.co.uk)
I don't know how "E.C" differs from N.C (I think N.C is Nitrile + Carbon-ceramic?)
So I guess you need a 5/8" type 70 nitrile mech seal. Take a look at the "Size Code" 0158 in this spec sheet for dimensions: www.georgelodgedirect.co.uk/downloads/ME...70.E.C/type%2070.pdf
1980 KZ1300 B2 Touring/A2
1990 ZZ-R1100 C1
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1 year 7 months ago #31137
by dcarver220b
Replied by dcarver220b on topic Water Pump Seals
WooHoo Paul! Love a success story 
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1 year 7 months ago #31140
by PaulD
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1 year 7 months ago - 1 year 7 months ago #31143
by dcarver220b
Replied by dcarver220b on topic Water Pump Seals
2023-04-16 Kz1300 Water Pump Mech Seal MeasurementsFound a possible replacement from Amazon for the 1979 KZ1300 A1 water pump mechanical seal.Short of long, it won't work.
x
x
x
x
Some measurements.
continued...
continued...
Last edit: 1 year 7 months ago by dcarver220b.
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