Regrettable Engine strip down !!!! I think " Follow up". But it's not over.
- z13phil
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Regrettable Engine strip down !!!! I think " Follow up". But it's not over.
1 day 4 minutes ago
OK Guys, here it is, i have owned the bike for many years. In all this time the plugs have suffered with soot and oil after only 60 to 70 miles .
So the last engine work, was carried out a few months ago, as the above title suggests. So it was taken apart and new valve stem seals fitted, new head gasket plus a few other replacement parts.
To cut a long story short, engine re assembled started all good. Ran very nice, BUT the smoke from the exhaust as bad as its always been, particularly from 1&2 and 6.
Im Talking very rich two stroke smoke that does not go away when run up to temperature !. Even oil collecting in the left hand exhaust ! coolant checked, also oil checked, no cross contamination.
What puzzles me is when the cylinders have been pressure tested im getting between 150 to 170 PSI . 150psi being number 1 . The rest of the cylinders 160 to 170.
So can the oil be coming into the cylinders via the oil rings ????? If these were worn, I would not be expecting the pressures I have, if anything was worn.
Am I missing something or overlooked something.
Im sure you guys will be able to tell me. Many thanks in advance.
So the last engine work, was carried out a few months ago, as the above title suggests. So it was taken apart and new valve stem seals fitted, new head gasket plus a few other replacement parts.
To cut a long story short, engine re assembled started all good. Ran very nice, BUT the smoke from the exhaust as bad as its always been, particularly from 1&2 and 6.
Im Talking very rich two stroke smoke that does not go away when run up to temperature !. Even oil collecting in the left hand exhaust ! coolant checked, also oil checked, no cross contamination.
What puzzles me is when the cylinders have been pressure tested im getting between 150 to 170 PSI . 150psi being number 1 . The rest of the cylinders 160 to 170.
So can the oil be coming into the cylinders via the oil rings ????? If these were worn, I would not be expecting the pressures I have, if anything was worn.
Am I missing something or overlooked something.
Im sure you guys will be able to tell me. Many thanks in advance.
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- scotch
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Re: Regrettable Engine strip down !!!! I think " Follow up". But it's not over.
21 hours 25 minutes ago
When I rebuilt my '80 4 yrs ago (I'm the only owner and have done regular oil/filter changes) I had a machine shop "Mic." everything. With 87,000K on the engine; pistons, cylinders and valve guides were all well within specs. I had to replace all the valves due to concerns about their condition and possible shim-gap issues after the seats were re-ground.
The '79 I recently finished got the same treatment by the same machine-shop. Same bar-honing, seats re-ground, new IMD rings etc., but the valve guides were shot, with only 20,000K ! Poor maintenance is likely the reason for requiring new guides.
I did all the reassembly myself with Viton valve-stem seals on both.
The '80 doesn't use any appreciable oil and I expect the same when I get the '79 on the road next season.
So........your valve guides could be worn-out !
The '79 I recently finished got the same treatment by the same machine-shop. Same bar-honing, seats re-ground, new IMD rings etc., but the valve guides were shot, with only 20,000K ! Poor maintenance is likely the reason for requiring new guides.
I did all the reassembly myself with Viton valve-stem seals on both.
The '80 doesn't use any appreciable oil and I expect the same when I get the '79 on the road next season.
So........your valve guides could be worn-out !
1980 KZ 1300 sr# KZT30A-009997
Always High - Know Fear !
Always High - Know Fear !
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- Kawboy
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Re: Regrettable Engine strip down !!!! I think " Follow up". But it's not over.
21 hours 20 minutes ago - 20 hours 51 minutes ago
Normally, before I go and tear down an engine for rebuilding, I do a leak down test. It tells me everything I need to know about the problem before I just tear it all apart and start Leak down testers run between $70- $150 .and the information they provide is invaluable when you know how to interpret the information provided. Some people think that just looking at the gauge is "the result" The person doing the test needs to listen for leaking at - The carbs to determine if the intake valve is passing, the exhaust, to determine of the exhaust valve is passing, the crankcase to determine if the piston rings are passing and the rad cap, looking for bubbles suggesting a bad head gasket.
If the piston rings were leaking and causing an excessive oil consumption problem the leak down tester would tell you how bad, and what cylinders.
When you tore down the engine, did you find carbon oily buildup on the back side of the #1, #2, #6 intake valves? If so then valve seals were a problem or-
The valve stem to valve guide clearance is excessive and the valves are rocking in the guides to the point that the valve seals can't accommodate. Valve seal problems also tend to show up on a hot engine and the worst happens when you pull up to a light and idle for a period of time, then when you pull away, the exhaust belches smoke and then after about 6-10 seconds seems to clear up. What happens is at idle the intake ports are under a higher vacuum which helps pull oil past the valve stem/ valve guides and sucks oil into the cylinders. Then when you accelerate, the fuel burning in the cylinders burns off the oil that accumulated on the piston crown and combustion chamber.
Your compression test - the results are high and if the gauge is accurate, tells me that carbon/ oil build up on the piston crown and combustion chamber is high causing the combustion pressure to be too high. 130-140 would be more appropriate. A thinner cylinder base gasket and or a thinner head gasket could also cause the compression to be high. 150-170 compression could be found in a engine with 12-1 compression ratio and would demand high octane gas to prevent detonation.
the camshaft grind on a stock cam is around the 270 deg. duration which is a moderate aggressive grind and it's hard to get a true compression at idle rpm when the intake closes at (off the top of my head) 30 degrees after bottom dead center. The more aggressive the grind the lower the compression readings. Take the same engine and drop a 290 grind into it and , you could see a compression test drop by 20-30 psi just because the intake valve closes later.
And last that comes to mind (although since this is not a new issue) - I've seen it where a newbie didn't know that there are 4 orings that need to be placed around the cylinder head studs associated with the oil passages that feed oil to the valve train. If someone left those orings out, then it could be possible for the oil to pass by the head gasket and get in to the cylinders on cylinders 1,2 and 5, 6.
I hope these thoughts help.
KB
If the piston rings were leaking and causing an excessive oil consumption problem the leak down tester would tell you how bad, and what cylinders.
When you tore down the engine, did you find carbon oily buildup on the back side of the #1, #2, #6 intake valves? If so then valve seals were a problem or-
The valve stem to valve guide clearance is excessive and the valves are rocking in the guides to the point that the valve seals can't accommodate. Valve seal problems also tend to show up on a hot engine and the worst happens when you pull up to a light and idle for a period of time, then when you pull away, the exhaust belches smoke and then after about 6-10 seconds seems to clear up. What happens is at idle the intake ports are under a higher vacuum which helps pull oil past the valve stem/ valve guides and sucks oil into the cylinders. Then when you accelerate, the fuel burning in the cylinders burns off the oil that accumulated on the piston crown and combustion chamber.
Your compression test - the results are high and if the gauge is accurate, tells me that carbon/ oil build up on the piston crown and combustion chamber is high causing the combustion pressure to be too high. 130-140 would be more appropriate. A thinner cylinder base gasket and or a thinner head gasket could also cause the compression to be high. 150-170 compression could be found in a engine with 12-1 compression ratio and would demand high octane gas to prevent detonation.
the camshaft grind on a stock cam is around the 270 deg. duration which is a moderate aggressive grind and it's hard to get a true compression at idle rpm when the intake closes at (off the top of my head) 30 degrees after bottom dead center. The more aggressive the grind the lower the compression readings. Take the same engine and drop a 290 grind into it and , you could see a compression test drop by 20-30 psi just because the intake valve closes later.
And last that comes to mind (although since this is not a new issue) - I've seen it where a newbie didn't know that there are 4 orings that need to be placed around the cylinder head studs associated with the oil passages that feed oil to the valve train. If someone left those orings out, then it could be possible for the oil to pass by the head gasket and get in to the cylinders on cylinders 1,2 and 5, 6.
I hope these thoughts help.
KB
Last edit: 20 hours 51 minutes ago by Kawboy.
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- kawaBCN
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Re: Regrettable Engine strip down !!!! I think " Follow up". But it's not over.
21 hours 14 minutes ago
I'm not a professional mechanic, but I would start by riding the motorcycle for a long distance. The muffler may be soaked in oil and not completely burned off. This happened to me on a smoking motorcycle, and the smoke disappeared after riding a longer distance.
If the problem persists, look inside the airbox. If it's full of oil, that's where the problem lies. An excess amount of oil or a leak in the piston rings will cause the airbox to fill up through the breather tube.
To check this, with the motorcycle warm and idling, unscrew the oil filler cap to see if it's blowing out of there. Translated with DeepL.com (free version)
If the problem persists, look inside the airbox. If it's full of oil, that's where the problem lies. An excess amount of oil or a leak in the piston rings will cause the airbox to fill up through the breather tube.
To check this, with the motorcycle warm and idling, unscrew the oil filler cap to see if it's blowing out of there. Translated with DeepL.com (free version)
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Re: Regrettable Engine strip down !!!! I think " Follow up". But it's not over.
18 hours 15 minutes ago - 8 hours 9 minutes agoHi Kawboy, OMG The last paragraph !!!!! I think you nailed it . When striping the head from the cylinder I photographed everything. No O rings !!!!! so when re fitting the head. No O rings were replaced. Christ I feel such a fool !!!!Kawboy post=34188 userid=599Normally, before I go and tear down an engine for rebuilding, I do a leak down test. It tells me everything I need to know about the problem before I just tear it all apart and start Leak down testers run between $70- $150 .and the information they provide is invaluable when you know how to interpret the information provided. Some people think that just looking at the gauge is "the result" The person doing the test needs to listen for leaking at - The carbs to determine if the intake valve is passing, the exhaust, to determine of the exhaust valve is passing, the crankcase to determine if the piston rings are passing and the rad cap, looking for bubbles suggesting a bad head gasket.
If the piston rings were leaking and causing an excessive oil consumption problem the leak down tester would tell you how bad, and what cylinders.
When you tore down the engine, did you find carbon oily buildup on the back side of the #1, #2, #6 intake valves? If so then valve seals were a problem or-
The valve stem to valve guide clearance is excessive and the valves are rocking in the guides to the point that the valve seals can't accommodate. Valve seal problems also tend to show up on a hot engine and the worst happens when you pull up to a light and idle for a period of time, then when you pull away, the exhaust belches smoke and then after about 6-10 seconds seems to clear up. What happens is at idle the intake ports are under a higher vacuum which helps pull oil past the valve stem/ valve guides and sucks oil into the cylinders. Then when you accelerate, the fuel burning in the cylinders burns off the oil that accumulated on the piston crown and combustion chamber.
Your compression test - the results are high and if the gauge is accurate, tells me that carbon/ oil build up on the piston crown and combustion chamber is high causing the combustion pressure to be too high. 130-140 would be more appropriate. A thinner cylinder base gasket and or a thinner head gasket could also cause the compression to be high. 150-170 compression could be found in a engine with 12-1 compression ratio and would demand high octane gas to prevent detonation.
the camshaft grind on a stock cam is around the 270 deg. duration which is a moderate aggressive grind and it's hard to get a true compression at idle rpm when the intake closes at (off the top of my head) 30 degrees after bottom dead center. The more aggressive the grind the lower the compression readings. Take the same engine and drop a 290 grind into it and , you could see a compression test drop by 20-30 psi just because the intake valve closes later.
And last that comes to mind (although since this is not a new issue) - I've seen it where a newbie didn't know that there are 4 orings that need to be placed around the cylinder head studs associated with the oil passages that feed oil to the valve train. If someone left those orings out, then it could be possible for the oil to pass by the head gasket and get in to the cylinders on cylinders 1,2 and 5, 6.
I hope these thoughts help.
KB
This totally figures 1 & 2 also 6. The only two that ran well with no smoke were 3 and 4. All plugs removed but for 3 and 4 started and ran, No smoke. But oil blowing out of the spark plug hole from 1 & 2 and 6.
So I will try a leak down test as well. Just to check on the the oil rings on the pistons. But I think you have nailed it.
Well time to get the tools out. Many thanks again for the help.
Last edit: 8 hours 9 minutes ago by Kawboy.
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Re: Regrettable Engine strip down !!!! I think " Follow up". But it's not over.
7 hours 54 minutes ago - 4 hours 43 minutes ago
After reading your reply, I had another thought. On the engine I just tore down last summer, when I pulled the head I found the 4 o-rings around the head studs. I had never seen that before. The engine rebuild gasket set I got off of EBay had a package of o-rings in it and I found 4 identical o-rings that fit in the head gasket so I felt comfortable with the provided gasket set. Now I don't know if the OEM head gasket is the same setup since it has silicone sealing built into the gasket around the water jackets and .possibly around the openings for the cylinder studs??
It would be appreciated if some of the other engine builders on the site would comment in here since I'm sure we all have been using various aftermarket head gaskets. There's no mention in the Service Manual regarding any o-rings around the 4 cylinder head studs and any of the parts photos I can find don't show a specific part # for the o-rings, so I would like to know what people have found and how they dealt with it.
Here are a couple of interesting tidbits I pulled from old posts-
From Nov 16 2013 Strate6 wrote strate6 John,
The cylinder head gasket has crimp washers around each cylinder & on the 4 oil feed studs.
These are crushed when gasket is fitted & torqued to ensure they are 100% gas & oil tight.
It also means they are not reusable so you need a new one.
Pete F
31st January 2014 RickG wrote
It is very important to lubricate the threads and seats of the nuts and washers.
When I was doing my apprenticeship (more years than I care to think about) as a fitter we were shown just how important it is. First a cylinder head bolt was torqued up to the specified tension , 65ft/lb I think it was, with dry threads but clean and the seat tension was very close to 1 ton. It was repeated again using an anti-seize compound like Permatex never seize and the seat pressure was just a touch over 4 tons and then again with the same lubricant on the washer and nut seat and the seat pressure went to almost 5 tons.
That is as you know just how important it is and every thread should be lubricated unless the manufacturer says otherwise.
I have seen racers blow gasket after gasket and wonder why until someone takes pity and tells them.
And about bottoming the thread in the crowned nuts on the bike in my avatar I always machined the top of any nuts I ever used after I figured out what happened
It would be appreciated if some of the other engine builders on the site would comment in here since I'm sure we all have been using various aftermarket head gaskets. There's no mention in the Service Manual regarding any o-rings around the 4 cylinder head studs and any of the parts photos I can find don't show a specific part # for the o-rings, so I would like to know what people have found and how they dealt with it.
Here are a couple of interesting tidbits I pulled from old posts-
From Nov 16 2013 Strate6 wrote strate6 John,
The cylinder head gasket has crimp washers around each cylinder & on the 4 oil feed studs.
These are crushed when gasket is fitted & torqued to ensure they are 100% gas & oil tight.
It also means they are not reusable so you need a new one.
Pete F
31st January 2014 RickG wrote
It is very important to lubricate the threads and seats of the nuts and washers.
When I was doing my apprenticeship (more years than I care to think about) as a fitter we were shown just how important it is. First a cylinder head bolt was torqued up to the specified tension , 65ft/lb I think it was, with dry threads but clean and the seat tension was very close to 1 ton. It was repeated again using an anti-seize compound like Permatex never seize and the seat pressure was just a touch over 4 tons and then again with the same lubricant on the washer and nut seat and the seat pressure went to almost 5 tons.
That is as you know just how important it is and every thread should be lubricated unless the manufacturer says otherwise.
I have seen racers blow gasket after gasket and wonder why until someone takes pity and tells them.
And about bottoming the thread in the crowned nuts on the bike in my avatar I always machined the top of any nuts I ever used after I figured out what happened
Last edit: 4 hours 43 minutes ago by Kawboy.
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